Transcript
[0:00] Tolerance is the small beginning of
[0:02] freedom from being irritated by pain.
[0:06] We build that tolerance into real
[0:08] patience, which gets stronger and
[0:10] stronger under the pressures of everyday
[0:12] life.
[0:18] Well, thank you all for coming.
[0:21] Dad, Sharon.
[0:24] Um I've never done this before, tried to
[0:26] moderate. I've tried to moderate for my
[0:28] father many times.
[0:30] But um not in a serious matter and never
[0:33] with you, Sharon, and after although I
[0:35] did get my first meditation lesson from
[0:38] you. So, this is a great honor to get to
[0:39] be here
[0:40] tonight. Um I guess I would I would just
[0:43] start to start you guys off um say this
[0:46] uh book is very interesting, Love Your
[0:49] Enemies. Um Sharon and Professor Thurman
[0:55] uh cover a lot of a lot of territory
[0:58] about transcendence and compassion and
[1:01] self-transformation and
[1:03] um
[1:05] the the only personal uh
[1:08] kind of note that I found in here, which
[1:10] I like Sharon to start with you,
[1:13] um
[1:15] which I think really touches on the
[1:16] beginning of your relationship. Sharon
[1:18] and my father have been collaborating on
[1:20] this subject for many years. Is it
[1:21] Sharon you wrote that um
[1:24] and I wonder if this changed your
[1:25] relationship and and started this
[1:27] between you. He wrote that after reading
[1:29] your book Faith,
[1:30] um
[1:32] Dad said to you regarding the things
[1:34] that you shared about your own childhood
[1:36] in that book,
[1:37] "You should never be ashamed of the
[1:39] suffering that you'd been through." And
[1:42] you say in this in this in this
[1:44] collaboration together that that really
[1:46] changed you and made you start to
[1:47] rethink the effects of your suffering
[1:50] had been and how it transformed you. So,
[1:52] I start off with with with with your
[1:54] relationship with Bob in that way.
[1:58] Well, uh Professor Thurman and I are
[2:00] old friends.
[2:01] Uh my retreat center this retreat center
[2:04] I co-founded is in Barre, Massachusetts,
[2:06] which is about 45 minutes away from
[2:08] Amherst, uh where you began your I
[2:12] believe you began your teaching career
[2:14] there.
[2:14] I did. I did. Right. And uh we'd always
[2:17] been friends and began teaching together
[2:20] when Bob came to New York City and I
[2:23] started spending more time in New York
[2:24] City and uh I wrote a book called Faith,
[2:27] which was really about my own faith
[2:29] journey and talked a lot about the the
[2:31] disruptions and the loss and the
[2:33] incredible sorrow of my childhood as is
[2:35] true for many people.
[2:37] And it was of course a little strange
[2:40] for me to have that be so public and yet
[2:44] I I kind of tried to avoid it a lot in
[2:46] writing that book, but my faith journey
[2:49] was really rooted in everything I had
[2:51] gone through. So, in the end I didn't
[2:53] avoid it and it was
[2:55] kind of uncomfortable for me and then
[2:57] Bob really turned my thinking around.
[3:00] Really? I didn't realize
[3:02] beautiful.
[3:03] That's nice. I'm glad.
[3:05] I'm glad.
[3:06] Well, that's nice.
[3:08] Maybe I didn't suffer as much in my
[3:10] childhood or something. I don't know.
[3:12] You're in denial. What?
[3:15] I'm sure that's true.
[3:17] I'm sure that's true. I was always I was
[3:19] a middle son, so I think I was a lost
[3:21] person, but no it still it doesn't
[3:22] measure up to the difficulties that you
[3:25] experienced because your your parents
[3:27] cuz you were adopted by so many families
[3:29] and this and that. You had a definitely
[3:31] tougher time, I think, really.
[3:33] And and but you know, then I lost my eye
[3:36] after having coasted around. So, in a
[3:38] way our different sufferings helped us.
[3:41] Yeah, very much.
[3:42] Made us encounter the Dharma earlier
[3:44] than we might have otherwise. You might
[3:46] have just been like a suburban housewife
[3:48] in Buffalo.
[3:50] You never know. Never know.
[3:52] Republican.
[3:57] What did your teacher say to you when uh
[4:01] he heard you lost your eye? Something
[4:03] like Uh well, he said that if anybody
[4:06] else asked me about it, I should say I
[4:09] lost one and gained a thousand. And then
[4:11] he said actually it's similar. You're
[4:13] right because he said, "Don't be
[4:15] ashamed. Just go ahead and say it." Cuz
[4:18] he knew that I'm kind of uh shy sort of
[4:20] in my uh Surprisingly, people think I'm
[4:22] very much like a lion or something, but
[4:24] actually I'm very shy. And so he just
[4:26] said, "Don't be ashamed, but just say
[4:28] that. You lost one and gained a
[4:30] thousand." So, I do say that.
[4:33] So, in the in the book two of you, which
[4:36] you would I think it's very nice you
[4:37] actually open the book saying, "How to
[4:39] use this book?" So, it's clearly it's a
[4:42] teaching instrument this book. You're
[4:44] you know, you both of you are this has
[4:46] been an a work in progress this the
[4:49] teaching and learning in your own. And
[4:51] you depict four types of how you
[4:55] categorize the different enemies. Would
[4:57] you care to sort of enemies as you know,
[4:59] adversity or you know, they're not just
[5:02] people. They're not bad guys, right?
[5:04] These are four different elements of
[5:06] adversities struggle.
[5:07] Right. Right. Well, um originally I had
[5:10] as usual I overdo everything. I'm known
[5:12] as you as you know well, I'm known in
[5:15] the household as Mr. Overdo.
[5:17] And uh
[5:18] and so I wanted to do a lot with outer
[5:20] enemies like solve all the entire
[5:22] geopolitical situations of the entire
[5:25] planet naturally. Since I think that
[5:28] external enemies even so-called you
[5:30] know, war enemies could solve things if
[5:32] they would avoid hatred and anger. You
[5:35] know, like my one of my lamas
[5:36] beautifully said once that the that the
[5:38] trigger of the nuclear weapon, you know,
[5:40] like plutonium and then the detonator
[5:43] and all of the whole thing about nuclear
[5:44] weapon, but the trigger of the nuclear
[5:46] weapon is hatred in the human mind.
[5:48] Mhm. And anger and hatred in the human
[5:51] mind. Otherwise, it would they would
[5:52] never press the button or turn the keys
[5:55] or whatever it is they have or they
[5:55] wouldn't invent it and make it if they
[5:57] didn't have that. So, it's the the key
[6:00] component of the nuclear weapon is
[6:01] hatred. So, um
[6:04] uh so the outer enemy is the first one,
[6:07] of course. That's the obvious one, which
[6:08] is the either the political enemy or
[6:10] it's the personal enemy, someone who has
[6:12] the intent to harm you. And some people
[6:15] have objected to us use of the word
[6:16] enemies saying that, "Well, if you're
[6:18] being spiritual, you don't have any
[6:19] enemies." And of course, that is the
[6:21] goal to be a kind of person who who
[6:23] doesn't have an enemy in the sense of
[6:26] they don't nurse enmity. But that
[6:28] doesn't mean that there isn't someone
[6:29] else who might still have intent to harm
[6:31] you and then that person is thinking of
[6:33] you as their enemy and therefore they
[6:35] are your enemy, classified as your
[6:37] enemy. And
[6:39] this is one of the initial objections
[6:40] that we expected to get. The main
[6:42] objection is, "How can you love your
[6:44] enemy?" You know, that means they'll
[6:45] come and kill you or you say, "Please
[6:47] come and shoot me" or something to the
[6:48] enemy. That's loving the enemy. That
[6:50] isn't loving the enemy. When Jesus said
[6:52] love your enemy, he even said in the
[6:54] Beatitudes in the Matthew, he said, "I'm
[6:58] not interested if you love your friends
[6:59] and your family. Everybody does that. I
[7:01] would like to see you loving your
[7:03] enemies, those are the ones who want to
[7:04] enter with me, you know, into heaven."
[7:06] And Buddha long before that said,
[7:08] "Hatred will never put an end to hatred.
[7:10] Only love puts an end to hatred." And
[7:12] sort of love your enemy sort of routine.
[7:14] And the our idea there is that and I
[7:16] think their idea and what we've tried to
[7:18] unpack is that loving your enemy means
[7:21] that you
[7:23] can confront them even forcefully or you
[7:26] can evade them energetically, run away
[7:29] from them, uh and yet you're not doing
[7:32] either one out of while carrying the
[7:34] burden of hating them. Mhm. And that
[7:36] even if you have to tangle with them, if
[7:39] you don't have hatred for them, you're
[7:40] like a martial art person who can be
[7:42] more balanced and you can see them from
[7:45] another angle and you can avoid their
[7:47] problem and even be forceful with them
[7:49] in a in a way with good judgment that
[7:52] will be effective. So, the general
[7:54] principle without getting into solving
[7:56] all the different problem, the Iranian
[7:58] problem, the China problem, all the
[8:00] problems, Tibetan problem,
[8:02] uh is just that by loving them means you
[8:05] wish for their happiness. Mhm. If your
[8:07] enemy is happy, why would they bother to
[8:09] be your enemy? Right. And so it's a
[8:11] practical suggestion. We won't argue
[8:14] against those who say that loving your
[8:16] enemy would mean that you'll become a
[8:17] doormat and they'll trample you and walk
[8:19] all over you. On the contrary, it's not
[8:22] good for them to walk all over you,
[8:23] especially if you're a nice person. So,
[8:25] you have to oppose that that they should
[8:27] do that. Have a right to, but you should
[8:29] do it without hating them. That's the
[8:31] key. Well, it is December and this the
[8:33] birthday of Jesus is coming. So,
[8:35] I think it's very timely. Uh
[8:38] That's true. Um the other three uh
[8:41] sections of of how you describe the
[8:43] enemy are more spiritual and
[8:45] psychological and emotional. Sharon,
[8:48] would you want to start to delve into,
[8:50] you know, the inner enemy? What is the
[8:52] inner enemy? Well, the inner enemy are
[8:56] it's certain states not from the mere
[8:59] feeling of them because we feel what we
[9:00] feel and I think we should never uh be
[9:03] afraid of or condemn what we feel, but
[9:05] when we're overcome by certain states
[9:08] like greed, jealousy, hatred, fear, then
[9:12] especially when they drive us into
[9:14] action, then they're very consequential
[9:15] and they separate us from what is really
[9:18] possible for us and from a much deeper
[9:21] understanding of what strength is, what
[9:24] happiness is, how how we can actually be
[9:26] and and sometimes even happiness is cast
[9:30] as a kind of selfishness. People think,
[9:32] "Oh, that's you know, that's just
[9:34] superficial and being conflict avoidant
[9:36] and just endlessly seeking pleasure."
[9:38] But really it's like this wellspring of
[9:41] well-being out of which we can care and
[9:44] be generous and connect. Other
[9:46] otherwise, we're so um demoralized, you
[9:49] know, we're so brought down by our
[9:53] actions and and how unhappy we are. It's
[9:56] actually not serving anybody. so
[9:58] knowing the inner enemies is very
[10:00] important and at the same time the
[10:03] negative emotions. Yeah, it's like
[10:04] negative emotions but not again, it's
[10:06] not just the feeling of them because
[10:08] then people carry on, you know, and into
[10:10] another whole place of separation and
[10:12] enmity.
[10:14] But realizing that we can approach all
[10:17] of what we feel in a very different way
[10:19] with awareness, with balance, with
[10:21] compassion and let it go if we want to.
[10:25] So it's a tremendous possibility of
[10:27] choice and and creativity. So that's
[10:30] really the the realm of the inner enemy.
[10:34] I was thinking
[10:35] I just had the thought I don't know if I
[10:37] wrote in the book while you were talking
[10:39] that
[10:40] and the intent to harm idea
[10:42] the inner enemy might present itself to
[10:45] one as helping you like tell you if you
[10:48] get really blow your mind top and attack
[10:50] somebody then you'll really get some
[10:52] benefit and it tricks you like that. But
[10:54] it does intend to harm the other person
[10:57] anger and hatred does. And so since it
[11:01] therefore is based on the ignorance that
[11:02] you and the other person are different
[11:04] entities by harming the other person you
[11:06] are actually harming yourself. So it
[11:08] does fit the definition of intent to
[11:10] harm in an indirect way because and and
[11:14] of course people out of anger and hatred
[11:16] they'll sometimes kill themselves
[11:18] they'll commit suicide they'll harm
[11:20] somebody they love and be very deeply
[11:22] regretted later. So the harm there is
[11:24] that intent to harm and it seems the
[11:26] trick is that when your own mind comes
[11:29] you and says well that's too much I I'm
[11:30] going to get rid of that person like
[11:32] that
[11:33] they're like horrible they're not even
[11:34] human etc. And and makes you think if I
[11:37] get really angry and filled with hatred
[11:39] I will get rid of them and therefore it
[11:40] will help me but actually that hurts me.
[11:44] So in fact it doesn't tend to harm our
[11:46] own emotion tends to harm us when they
[11:48] go out of control like that and they use
[11:50] us as a tool.
[11:51] So so how does that work? I never
[11:53] thought I don't think I addressed that
[11:55] in the
[11:56] sequel. All right all good. But I don't
[11:58] know I mean it's also true that those
[12:01] states those negative or afflictive
[12:03] emotions don't necessarily have to be
[12:05] directed at people.
[12:07] Okay.
[12:08] Suffering itself we can feel so ashamed
[12:10] and afraid and
[12:12] at change at
[12:15] difficulty at
[12:18] the emotions themselves. Yeah, we could
[12:19] be putting ourselves down by being angry
[12:21] at ourselves actually. Right right
[12:23] right. Okay. Or a situation you know, we
[12:25] feel hopeless or helpless in the face of
[12:29] change and we want to stop change from
[12:31] happening and that of course is an
[12:34] exercise in futility and so we're we
[12:36] just kind of spiraling down. Okay.
[12:39] That's true. Well, you make a you make a
[12:41] point strongly both of you in different
[12:44] points in the book that it's
[12:46] to be recognized that these some of
[12:48] these this adversity without it you
[12:50] wouldn't learn humility and patience and
[12:52] and
[12:54] you know, you wouldn't achieve some sort
[12:55] of better deeper grace in life
[12:57] compassion without suffering. So there I
[12:59] see the double and a double edge to what
[13:01] you're implying these these experiences
[13:04] are. That's true. Well, I do have the
[13:06] bad habit of disliking suffering
[13:10] myself. I hate to suffer and I don't
[13:13] like I as a child I never liked and
[13:15] you've seen me blubbering in sad movies.
[13:17] I hate them. You know, these horrible
[13:19] things King Lear and Hamlet and
[13:21] everybody gets wasted at the end. I hate
[13:23] that. I really do. I can't I don't like
[13:25] movies like that.
[13:27] If people are big on tragedy you know,
[13:28] that's great thing tragedy and actually
[13:30] in Buddhist aesthetics tragedy
[13:33] cultivates develops compassion you know,
[13:35] for you in a way but in a way I'm afraid
[13:37] there's a way of seeing tragedy as a
[13:39] kind of scapegoat ritual where somebody
[13:41] else suffers you know, and you you don't
[13:44] necessarily identify with them and don't
[13:46] necessarily get gripped by it. But
[13:47] anyway, I don't like tragedies. I like
[13:48] comedies. I like happy endings. I I
[13:51] can't take take it when things don't go
[13:53] well.
[13:55] So I was relieved in Cloud Atlas when it
[13:57] finally worked out. Oh god.
[14:01] Many were relieved at the end of Cloud
[14:02] Atlas.
[14:05] But
[14:07] but then and then when you're with your
[14:09] secret enemy you you you go into the
[14:12] a much more gigantic point you
[14:14] two of you talk a lot about
[14:16] self-obsession
[14:17] and you use a lot of interesting
[14:19] terminology dad like
[14:21] self-addiction.
[14:23] Yes.
[14:25] Narcissism. Yes. Sort of you have your
[14:27] own Orwellian kind of speech which
[14:29] sounds like it. Yes. Orwellian that's
[14:32] exciting. Well, you have your anger
[14:34] addiction
[14:35] you have your self-addiction you have
[14:38] self-preoccupation.
[14:39] Self-preoccupation that's actually
[14:41] addiction is something that I like to
[14:44] there's a famous word Sharon knows
[14:46] klesha and probably it's kilesa
[14:49] and it comes from a word klesh which
[14:51] means to twist and these kind of
[14:53] emotions like anger and hatred are
[14:55] klesha you know, they twist you and
[14:59] and so they're usually called
[15:01] afflictions. People translate I used to
[15:03] translate as affliction but but
[15:05] affliction is just a suffering actually
[15:07] whereas these are emotions that seem to
[15:10] be helping you but they're actually
[15:12] twisting you out of shape and making you
[15:15] suffer. So they're actually the causes
[15:16] of suffering. So they fit perfectly with
[15:19] the word addiction in the sense that an
[15:21] addictive substance is something that
[15:23] seems to give you a buzz it seems to
[15:26] help you but it drops you in a worse
[15:28] place than when you were to start with
[15:30] you know, but the trick of it the reason
[15:32] it becomes addictive is it seems to give
[15:34] you to lift you out of your you know,
[15:36] misery or whatever and so that's why
[15:38] anger comes to you in your own voice and
[15:40] says if you go beat up so-and-so you'll
[15:42] be great you know, then they'll never
[15:44] bother you again. But but then actually
[15:46] when you do then their friends come and
[15:48] beat you up and then they're miserable
[15:50] and then you feel badly later and so
[15:51] forth and so on. So in fact it leaves
[15:53] you in a worse place and so all of them
[15:56] are addictions. Then the the secret
[15:58] enemy being the self-identity habit
[16:01] or the self underlying the
[16:02] self-addiction is this idea of yourself
[16:05] as a rigid unchanging being that always
[16:08] has to defend a sort of separate space
[16:11] and puts you in the predicament and this
[16:13] of course Buddha's deepest original
[16:15] insight and let me have Sharon please
[16:18] you tell us your version of that. But
[16:20] that's basically the idea that you're
[16:22] separate from everything else in the
[16:23] universe so in a way you are opposed the
[16:25] universe is opposed to you and you're
[16:27] opposed to the universe and that
[16:29] struggle you lose right? That's the
[16:31] second noble truth. That's your us
[16:33] versus them. Yes, that's the root of the
[16:35] us versus them is that I'm something
[16:36] absolutely separate from everything else
[16:38] and I have my own space my own identity
[16:40] and everything comes at me to take that
[16:43] away sickness, old age, death and
[16:46] enemies. And so I've had to struggle
[16:48] against the universe and when things are
[16:50] going well and I feel up on top of it
[16:52] well, the universe just seems to be at
[16:54] bay but then if you know, then the
[16:56] people who are very powerful then they
[16:58] worry about losing their power and so
[17:00] really they they still are overwhelmed
[17:02] by the universe. Nobody can beat the
[17:03] universe. That was Buddha's insight not
[17:05] really genius thing. But you tell your
[17:07] way Sharon.
[17:08] No, that's that's the secret one. But
[17:10] what do you how do you put it? Well,
[17:12] usually I talk about interconnection and
[17:14] how we actually live in an interconnect
[17:17] actually one of my favorite things I
[17:19] learned from you was the simple word
[17:21] realistic.
[17:23] You know, that we don't necessarily live
[17:25] in a harmony with reality and and
[17:27] there's really a twist you know, it's
[17:30] like the proverbial banging your head
[17:32] against the wall insisting things not be
[17:34] the way they actually are and one of the
[17:36] ways they are is that we live in a world
[17:40] of connection not of isolation. However
[17:42] alone or cut off we might feel that's
[17:45] because we're not looking deeply enough
[17:47] and were we to look deeply in and
[17:50] interestingly not just spiritually but
[17:52] in terms of environmental consciousness
[17:55] in terms of economics
[17:57] even in terms of epidemiology what we
[18:00] see is that what happens over there
[18:01] doesn't nicely stay over there. It
[18:03] really filters out and affects us over
[18:05] here and that what we do it matters
[18:09] because our actions ripple out. And so
[18:13] we can look at anything. We can look at
[18:15] this moment in time our being here in
[18:16] this room or on the web or whatever
[18:19] being together right now and we're all
[18:21] here because of conversations we had or
[18:24] interactions or somebody gave us a book
[18:27] or you know, there there a whole series
[18:29] of events that brought us to this moment
[18:31] in time. It's like a confluence of all
[18:34] of that and that's how every moment in
[18:36] time is and we can just have this
[18:38] different perspective so that we don't
[18:40] feel
[18:41] whether in joy or in sorrow so cut off.
[18:45] So the isolation the sense of
[18:46] isolationism itself is an enemy. Is this
[18:49] sort of what you have
[18:51] in your secret? That's what we've we've
[18:53] kept class as the secret. One thing I
[18:54] want to say what I learned from Sharon
[18:56] about the inner enemy
[18:58] way that's really where the mindfulness
[19:00] meditation of which she is of one of the
[19:03] great masters in the country
[19:05] and maybe in the world actually and
[19:08] the idea that you learn to listen to
[19:10] your thoughts and you learn to see which
[19:13] ones are essential and which are not and
[19:15] even you begin to realize that none of
[19:17] them are really essential actually
[19:19] giving yourself the inner freedom to
[19:21] choose between thoughts through
[19:23] cultivating mindfulness and that I
[19:24] really learned from her although not
[19:25] properly because I'm I'm the worst
[19:27] meditator you know, and she's the great
[19:30] one but I am still working on it and
[19:32] she's the real one.
[19:35] You what? Can you have competitive
[19:37] meditation? No, yeah yeah but she's
[19:39] she's the real meditator. She
[19:41] That's right. I'm too much of a
[19:43] workaholic.
[19:44] Exactly. Exactly. And
[19:47] so I'm the worst meditator and I'm much
[19:49] too workaholic to do it properly. It's a
[19:51] very good thing.
[19:53] maybe. Bit by bit, Sharon has made a
[19:54] dent That's it. in getting me to count
[19:57] my breath, and like calm down, and be in
[20:00] the moment, and observe those inner
[20:02] thoughts, and don't worry so much about
[20:05] the Tibet, and don't worry so much about
[20:07] the people suffering, and don't take the
[20:09] whole world burden on your shoulders,
[20:11] etc., etc. Well, you know, you do go a
[20:13] lot on in the in the in the book about,
[20:15] you know, self-preoccupation being this
[20:17] evil, and other-preoccupation being this
[20:20] great gift.
[20:21] Of course, that is
[20:21] So, you are otherwise very preoccupied.
[20:23] Yes, that's true.
[20:26] Well, that's Shantideva's great thing.
[20:29] That That you know, if you can't
[20:31] meditate properly and forget about
[20:32] yourself, then at least you can worry
[20:35] about other people, and then you sort of
[20:37] get distracted from
[20:38] yourself-preoccupation,
[20:40] and since that's sort of like the
[20:42] shortcut to being enlightened, because
[20:44] even though you're not enlightened,
[20:46] if you're not enlightened, but if you
[20:48] since enlightened beings only care about
[20:50] other people, cuz they themselves are
[20:52] completely satisfied, they become sort
[20:54] of
[20:55] by they they have realized emptiness, as
[20:57] we call it, or selflessness, through an
[20:59] experience of bliss. The only way you
[21:01] can realize selflessness is not
[21:02] conceptually, but by melting into it,
[21:05] and that gives you bliss. So, they're
[21:06] completely self-satisfied, actually,
[21:08] enlightened people, and therefore they
[21:10] only worry about others. So, a selfish
[21:12] person like me, who's always worrying,
[21:15] if I focus the worry on others, then I
[21:17] imitate the blissful person, and when I
[21:20] talk about it, I feel blissful, and then
[21:22] when I don't talk about it, I'm
[21:23] miserable, as usual, you know. So, don't
[21:25] worry, I don't pretend to be
[21:26] enlightened.
[21:28] I'm I'm probably more miserable than any
[21:30] of you.
[21:31] Uh is there a competitive misery? There
[21:34] you go. All right.
[21:37] Very good.
[21:38] so Sharon,
[21:41] so why is compassion the key to
[21:43] happiness?
[21:45] I think compassion, first of all, One of
[21:48] the keys.
[21:48] One of the many There are many you guys
[21:51] are running down.
[21:52] Um
[21:53] one of the things we talk about, both in
[21:56] terms of mindfulness and compassion, is
[21:58] that
[21:59] if we let go of trying to control our
[22:01] experience, but work with
[22:04] really radically transforming our
[22:06] relationship to our experience. And
[22:09] first of all, that's something we can
[22:10] do. However much we insist
[22:12] a huge point you make, is it's about
[22:14] changing your perspective.
[22:15] Yeah, exactly.
[22:17] Yeah, and changing relationship, instead
[22:19] of holding on, pushing away, and
[22:21] uh feeling so bitterly alone and
[22:23] isolated, realizing that we live in a
[22:26] community of beings, and that we all
[22:28] want to be happy.
[22:29] Everybody Everybody may feel bitterly
[22:32] alone, but the reality,
[22:34] uh according to Dr. Thurman, is is that
[22:38] in truth, we're all connected, and so
[22:41] uh we really work a lot with that,
[22:43] because it's realistic. It's something
[22:45] we can do, instead of feeling like, you
[22:47] know, I should you know, I've decided
[22:49] I've weighed all the pros and cons, and
[22:51] I'm never going to be angry again, or
[22:52] Mhm. I've grieved long enough for
[22:54] whatever, you know, we don't have that
[22:56] kind of control, but we can change our
[22:58] lives completely by changing how we
[23:01] relate to all of our experience. And
[23:03] then compassion is is this beautiful
[23:06] state that's actually very generative.
[23:09] People I mean, I thought like as Bob
[23:11] said, I thought we would get in trouble
[23:14] with the title, because of the word
[23:15] love, not because of the word enemies,
[23:18] because so many times people think of
[23:20] love or compassion as something sort of
[23:22] silly, or um you're going to be a
[23:25] doormat, you're going to let anything
[23:27] happen, you're not going to fight,
[23:28] you're going to
[23:30] uh lose all strength and determination,
[23:32] and I often think like, what a time we
[23:35] live in that our sense of love or
[23:36] compassion has has kind of degenerated
[23:39] to that point, instead of
[23:41] or realizing the forces that they
[23:44] actually are, the incredible powers that
[23:46] they are. And so, we can walk in the
[23:48] land of compassion for a very long way,
[23:51] and and realize its strength, and and
[23:55] its power, and realize that oh, we can
[23:58] be coming from a compassionate place,
[24:00] which is a place of connection,
[24:02] um to ourselves, and make changes from
[24:06] that place. We can have compassion for
[24:09] someone else,
[24:10] and still be very clear, well, I'm not
[24:13] giving in, or I'm not
[24:16] giving up, or I'm not letting you move
[24:18] into my apartment, or whatever it might
[24:20] be.
[24:21] Uh but it within ourselves, we feel
[24:24] whole.
[24:26] Yeah, like a mom has fierce compassion
[24:29] to see to avoiding the suffering of her
[24:31] young, for example. And then it's like
[24:33] Einstein said, we one has to expand that
[24:35] to be the mom of other beings, you know.
[24:38] Be like a mom with other beings. That's
[24:40] uh the Buddha is defined as one who
[24:41] thinks of every being as as if they were
[24:44] his only beloved child, you know. Mhm.
[24:46] Poor guy.
[24:49] But apparently, he can manage it, you
[24:51] know, supposedly. He or she, there are
[24:52] female Buddhas, also.
[24:56] Thank you, sir.
[24:58] There are, there are.
[25:01] And Sharon, you also said that when you
[25:03] see others as enemies, you become an
[25:05] enemy to yourself.
[25:07] So, how how did how did you come to
[25:10] that, this idea that objectifying
[25:12] another objectifies yourself? Mhm. Well,
[25:15] some of it I think has to do with that
[25:17] sense of aloneness, as we feel more and
[25:19] more and more separate. And some of it
[25:21] has to do with giving over too much of
[25:24] our own life energy to others.
[25:26] Um so that we're defined by the way
[25:28] others see us. We uh are exhilarated
[25:32] with praise, and we're despondent with
[25:33] blame, and we think, oh, you know, now
[25:36] I'm going to
[25:38] do the perfect thing. I'm going to say
[25:39] it so well, everyone is going to love
[25:42] it, and I'm never going to receive any
[25:44] kind of criticism. And of course, that's
[25:46] just not so. Because people respond from
[25:50] wherever they're at, as well. It's not
[25:53] that people come
[25:54] in a vacuum to hear us, or receive our
[25:58] gift, or or whatever it might be. And
[26:00] so, uh it's just wisdom to realize that
[26:04] life, in in every way, within ourselves
[26:07] and interpersonally, brings us ups and
[26:09] downs, and and that's how things are.
[26:12] But we can find a measure of peace,
[26:14] anyway.
[26:15] And so, rather than thinking of
[26:18] the airlines as our enemy, and the
[26:20] neighbor is our enemy, and
[26:23] Verizon, perhaps, or
[26:25] whatever it might be that our struggle
[26:28] is with,
[26:29] uh whatever,
[26:30] um we can realize, okay, these are
[26:32] people, and everybody's going through
[26:35] their own thing, and maybe there's a way
[26:38] that I can interact that will help me
[26:40] get what I want. It's not that we give
[26:42] up on that,
[26:43] but it's it's not the same thing as as
[26:46] just feeling so uh embattled all the
[26:49] time. Mhm.
[26:51] I think you know, you mentioned that
[26:54] that you know, Bob was going to debunk
[26:55] the whole concept of the enemy, which I
[26:57] think you do very well
[26:59] in in the book, that I've sort of
[27:01] helping to break it down that the other
[27:04] is not in fact even another person.
[27:06] Right.
[27:06] Ultimately, you sort of you transcend
[27:08] the concept of the other. Yes, yes.
[27:10] separation between them and you. Yes, if
[27:12] you if you develop the mind
[27:15] transformation practice,
[27:17] then they say there is no you have no
[27:19] enemy, because even someone harms you,
[27:22] you benefit from it. You manage to turn
[27:24] any adversity or any negative thing into
[27:27] something positive for your own
[27:28] evolutionary development, and you defend
[27:31] the magical shield of patience, they
[27:33] say, where you nothing bothers you, in a
[27:35] way, where no matter what it is. And of
[27:37] course, the Buddhists,
[27:39] because the Buddhists have this idea
[27:41] that is some so weird to us, but it's so
[27:44] commonplace to them, of the future life.
[27:46] And these things are played out over
[27:48] multiplicity of lives, so the the the
[27:51] guarding the mind from hatred is
[27:54] considered more important than guarding
[27:56] the life the body, actually. Because the
[27:59] hatred will drive you into a very bad
[28:01] future life. You'll be reborn in
[28:03] Jurassic Park as a raptor.
[28:06] A much better body for an animal of
[28:08] hatred, you know, like a hunting violent
[28:10] animal, or Tyrannosaurus, or something.
[28:12] Be much I mean, human beings, the fake
[28:15] thing that militaristic societies do,
[28:16] that human beings are basically violent,
[28:18] is ridiculous. You know, we like have no
[28:20] teeth, You don't think we have an animal
[28:22] mind?
[28:24] Yeah, we have a limbic We have a little
[28:25] tiny little slime little tiny
[28:27] big, actually.
[28:28] No, no, down inside, there's that little
[28:30] limbic brain. It's tiny. What's all
[28:32] that's left? There's no more crocodile
[28:33] teeth, no scales, no claws, you know,
[28:36] forget
[28:36] do a pretty good Well,
[28:38] impersonation of them.
[28:39] Yeah, you can dress up in a costume, or
[28:41] you can you can be Kill Bill, and you
[28:43] can slaughter a billion people in the
[28:44] movies,
[28:46] but in fact, you we are not really very
[28:48] capable like that. We just can be
[28:50] clever. We can then imitate violence,
[28:53] but actually, we're gentle people. I
[28:55] always like to say that
[28:56] That's not true.
[28:57] Human beings Human beings are not
[28:58] gentle. Yes, very gentle.
[29:00] half the species into extinction.
[29:02] Listen, the reason that we can talk to
[29:04] each other is that we don't eat each
[29:06] other the minute we meet.
[29:07] Well, they Well, it's It's not far
[29:09] off.
[29:10] meet.
[29:11] You know, they don't have time to chat.
[29:14] It's eat or be eaten, you know, that's
[29:15] the animal That's the animal level.
[29:17] That's why they don't talk, cuz they
[29:18] have no time.
[29:21] It's just munch. And human beings Human
[29:23] beings, we're sitting around in some
[29:25] cave while some tiger was outside going
[29:28] And then they were chatting.
[29:29] they had no fur. And then the men had to
[29:31] listen to the women.
[29:32] So, human beings talk because we have no
[29:34] fur? That's right.
[29:35] Cold. There you go. And we We don't have
[29:37] very strong teeth, etc. So, So,
[29:40] basically, the human being is kind of
[29:42] social, but it's not an absolute nature.
[29:46] We're capable of being more destructive
[29:47] than any animal, but we make you can
[29:50] blow up the whole planet, you know. But
[29:52] but we by our cleverness, you know, but
[29:55] but if we use that cleverness in our
[29:56] real nature, which is to be gentle and
[29:58] interconnected, we can become Buddhas.
[30:01] And you know, the thing about my next
[30:03] book
[30:04] Buddhas have more fun.
[30:07] But I don't know that personally, but I
[30:09] know it by definition, so I'm going to
[30:11] work on that.
[30:12] But that I'm sure they have more fun.
[30:14] That at least I I'm sure of that by
[30:16] theory, you know, and by observing them.
[30:18] And then why does everybody like to have
[30:20] a Buddha ashtray?
[30:22] And why do they like to have a Buddha in
[30:23] the garden? Because it guy is smiling
[30:26] like a big grin on his face.
[30:28] He's sitting there like this, but he's
[30:29] smiling.
[30:31] He's not looking freaked out.
[30:33] So, that's why people like them, you
[30:35] know, and and they do have more fun. My
[30:37] latest thing is Buddhas are kind of
[30:39] aliens.
[30:41] They're like a Spock figure who came
[30:43] down
[30:43] Okay. Okay. Okay.
[30:46] Trying to get people to cool out. We're
[30:49] at the why, Dad. We're at the why.
[30:50] You know you know Spock and Kirk always
[30:52] going down to these planets that are
[30:53] grade B, you know, and they're like have
[30:55] some dictatorship and they're arresting
[30:57] people and torturing them. And they go
[30:58] down there and they say, "Oh, well, we
[30:59] can't share any technology with you guys
[31:01] cuz you're still like beating up on
[31:03] people." And then they they're much you
[31:05] know, they're trying to like civilize
[31:07] them.
[31:07] And I think that and that's my latest
[31:09] thing. Excellent. Well, I I like it.
[31:11] It's goes with your naturally radiant
[31:13] mind.
[31:15] I didn't like that. Um well, as you
[31:17] there's I think it's you Sha- Sharon
[31:19] quoting that the Buddha said the mind is
[31:21] by nature radiant. Mhm. It's shining. It
[31:24] is because of visiting forces that we
[31:26] suffer. Mhm. So, Yeah. you want to talk
[31:29] a little bit about that this that is
[31:31] that the human being is
[31:33] is at at its purest restful state
[31:36] radiant and full of light. Yes. Mhm. The
[31:40] mind is naturally radiant and pure. The
[31:43] mind is shining. Prabhasvara. It's
[31:46] because of visiting forces that we
[31:47] suffer. Uh which is a quotation I've
[31:50] always loved from the Buddha and uh
[31:52] there are two parts of it that are most
[31:54] significant. One is that these forces
[31:56] are just visiting, whether it's greed or
[31:58] hatred or fear or jealousy.
[32:00] emotions.
[32:01] Yeah, they're visiting and they're not
[32:04] inherent to our being. They're
[32:06] adventitious. They're born out of
[32:07] condition.
[32:08] Adventitious, that's what they usually
[32:09] say, yes. Yes, thank you.
[32:11] As visiting, it's unusual, but that's
[32:13] interesting.
[32:14] Um you know, and I love that sense cuz
[32:17] right away I could imagine myself
[32:19] sitting happily at home minding my own
[32:20] business and hearing this knock at the
[32:22] door and I open the door and there's
[32:24] greed or jealousy and I fling open the
[32:27] door and I say, "Welcome home." Like
[32:29] forgetting who actually lives there that
[32:31] this is just a visitor. Or of course, we
[32:33] can be desperate and ashamed and afraid
[32:36] and kind of shut the door in the face of
[32:39] this visitor trying to pretend we never
[32:41] heard the knock and they somehow seem to
[32:43] find their way
[32:45] in the window or down the chimney or
[32:47] somehow. And so, one of the great skills
[32:50] of meditation is knowing how to be when
[32:53] you open that door. So that your
[32:56] relationship again, you know, to that
[32:59] that emotional state can be different.
[33:02] You can be present. You can be aware.
[33:04] You don't have to let them take over and
[33:06] you also don't have to be freaked out.
[33:08] Like, "Oh my god, I've been meditating
[33:10] for all this time and look who just came
[33:11] back." Um
[33:14] So, that's one of the really important
[33:16] things about the statement. And the
[33:17] other part, which always touched me, was
[33:20] the Buddha didn't say it's because of
[33:22] these forces that we're miserable
[33:24] creatures. We're horrible people. Uh
[33:26] we're just awful. He said it's because
[33:29] of visiting forces that we suffer. Mhm.
[33:33] And so, making that translation even in
[33:36] our experience where we see our own
[33:38] anger, we see our own fear and instead
[33:40] of saying bad and wrong and terrible and
[33:42] wretched, we say, "That's painful.
[33:45] That's a state of pain and that's the
[33:47] beginning of compassion."
[33:49] For yourself.
[33:50] For yourself. Mhm. Which is often the
[33:52] beginning of compassion Mhm. for others.
[33:55] I think that's a a nice segue because
[33:56] you haven't um
[33:58] touched upon the fourth of the enemies,
[34:01] which is uh self-loathing.
[34:05] Yeah, that's what we call the super
[34:06] secret one.
[34:06] The super secret and you you say in the
[34:08] in the in the book that it you know,
[34:10] that it doesn't matter whether you come
[34:11] from the outside in of depersonalizing
[34:13] others until you finally get into I
[34:16] guess the self-loathing, the
[34:17] depersonalization of oneself. Mhm.
[34:19] Um All the cultures on the planet try to
[34:22] tell everybody that they're worthless
[34:25] because they're run by authoritarian
[34:27] leaders, you know, the emperor of China
[34:30] or like the king of this or your Herod,
[34:32] you know, in Israel or you know, and so
[34:35] their whole thing is to make people feel
[34:37] worthless and weak. So, centuries of
[34:39] dominance
[34:40] domineer them.
[34:41] Right. Right. And then the religions
[34:42] founded by people who are liberators,
[34:44] really, Jesus and Muhammad and Buddha,
[34:47] they were liberators, but then they the
[34:50] institutions get relied with the state
[34:52] and then they turn it around into
[34:54] another way of oh, you're a sinner or
[34:55] you're ignorant or if Buddhism even is
[34:57] taught that way. You're just you never
[34:59] can understand anything and you lay
[35:00] people, you you know, hopeless. And so,
[35:03] that deep cultural imprint of our inner
[35:07] unworthiness is we call it the super
[35:08] secret one because we all build up this
[35:10] big defense and we say, "I'm so
[35:12] self-confident." And even people will be
[35:14] arrogant. And they will act like they're
[35:16] very proud and very secure, but it's a
[35:18] cover-up an inner feeling that they're
[35:21] nothing and nobody. And so, they're
[35:23] trying to assert themselves all sorts of
[35:25] ways, you know. And uh so, that's the
[35:27] deepest one where
[35:30] you you do we have to overcome that one
[35:31] in order to find that inner radiance.
[35:34] And that inner radiance prabhasvara is
[35:36] the Sanskrit or pabhasvara in San- they
[35:38] don't like, you know, consonant clusters
[35:40] in Pali. So, they go pabhasvara, but
[35:43] it's prabhasvara in Sanskrit. And it
[35:46] means a clear light, you know, like a
[35:48] luminosity
[35:49] that is your nature. If you find your
[35:51] real cellular nature, your real
[35:53] subatomic nature, your real the level
[35:56] where you're made of light.
[35:57] gene is Yeah, you you find that you are
[35:59] you realize that even this looks like a
[36:02] flesh and blood slightly decrepit body,
[36:04] but actually it's made of light.
[36:06] We're all made Everything is made of
[36:08] light, actually. There there's a
[36:09] realization like that. When you let the
[36:11] mind relax into it, then everything
[36:13] appears like luminous like that.
[36:14] Well, that always explained, you know,
[36:16] emptiness and reality that if you really
[36:19] break down an atom and you see these
[36:21] little dots in this empty space in the
[36:23] middle. So, that really actually that
[36:25] it's a complete matter is an illusion,
[36:27] right?
[36:27] Yes, that's right. Although although the
[36:29] then the the real emptiness when you you
[36:32] break it down and then everything
[36:33] disappears. And then the big mistake you
[36:35] can make is the one that materialist
[36:36] scientists make,
[36:38] which is when things dissolve under
[36:40] analysis, they jump up and say, "Eureka,
[36:42] I've got nothing."
[36:44] Do they? I proved that that's what's
[36:46] really there is nothing.
[36:48] But isn't that what you're trying to
[36:49] Which is ridiculous. There's no nothing.
[36:51] They just didn't find what they were
[36:52] looking for.
[36:54] And they say that and then we go saying,
[36:56] "I've got nothing." But you don't
[36:57] nobody's got nothing and nobody's going
[36:59] to be nothing. I guarantee 100%. None of
[37:02] you are going to be nothing.
[37:04] So, don't plan on letting your problems
[37:08] drop into nothing just by dying.
[37:10] Your everything will go on, you know,
[37:12] because something
[37:14] will continue.
[37:14] conservation. That's right. Or your
[37:16] happy A little little doleful that
[37:17] matter.
[37:18] Your suffering, your happiness, whatever
[37:20] it is will continue. So, make it happy.
[37:22] That's the key thing. And and and the
[37:24] thing about the self-loathing,
[37:25] discovering that super secret enemy is
[37:28] if you discover that and and really
[37:30] uproot it, which I don't claim to have
[37:32] done even myself,
[37:33] but even after all these years, but but
[37:36] you you will only way to overcome the
[37:39] fear of happiness
[37:41] is to discover that.
[37:42] Cuz when we feel extreme bliss
[37:44] Fear of happiness.
[37:44] Yeah, when we feel great bliss, we feel
[37:46] afraid.
[37:48] You know, bliss makes you afraid cuz
[37:49] bliss melts you and then you melt, "Oh,
[37:52] I'm going to die." or something. You
[37:53] know, it's it's no wonder that in
[37:55] French, you know, orgasm is called the
[37:57] petit mort, you know, the little death,
[37:59] you know.
[38:00] So, when you melt, you feel fear. And
[38:02] that that has to do with the fact that
[38:04] you feel I don't deserve to be happy and
[38:06] the reality might be nothing and if if I
[38:08] melt, I might be nothing. And that's
[38:10] that deep inner mistake that we make and
[38:13] which modern science materialist science
[38:15] scientific materialists have elevated to
[38:18] a dogma of their profession, actually.
[38:21] They've elevated that. Meanwhile, it's a
[38:23] sign of slight
[38:24] tinge of insanity
[38:27] on their part, I'm sorry to say. Slight
[38:29] in- I had a neuroscientist one time tell
[38:31] me that
[38:33] he had proven that there's nothing at
[38:36] death because he'd had a EEG fMRI on a
[38:39] brain of a dead person and he was sure
[38:42] that there was nothing in there.
[38:46] So, I
[38:46] took me a few days to laugh.
[38:50] He was so intent about it. The idea that
[38:53] they have a hole and have proven nothing
[38:54] and for discovering nothing, they expect
[38:56] Nobel Prizes.
[38:59] Well, maybe nothing is bliss.
[39:01] No. Um No, it's clear light. Radiance is
[39:05] bliss.
[39:07] Um we we've been handed a question.
[39:10] Shall we have a shall we shall we try?
[39:12] answered it? I don't remember. I'm
[39:15] sorry. I'm asleep. Oh, sorry. It's so
[39:18] it's just letting me that we weren't
[39:19] going to be handed a question.
[39:21] They weren't? No, there won't be
[39:22] questions on cards. So, whenever
[39:24] whenever you're ready
[39:25] We having questions from the crowd or
[39:26] Yeah, there'll happen questions will
[39:28] arise naturally.
[39:29] Okay. So, we finished our own question.
[39:31] Well, I think you what what what you
[39:33] might you have a lot more in this book
[39:35] than you've touched upon, so Well, we
[39:37] want people to read it.
[39:39] We're not expecting to conclude it.
[39:41] But I believe me, it's a wonderful
[39:43] experience to be interviewed by my
[39:45] daughter. She's like a professor. I'm
[39:47] like a
[39:48] daughter. She's like a professor.
[39:50] No, there's so many wonderful things and
[39:52] and and towards at the at the end of the
[39:53] book you do also share, you know, these
[39:57] wonderful techniques
[39:59] of empathy meditation or sympathetic
[40:03] joy.
[40:04] Um this What do you want to discuss a
[40:07] little bit about about the fact that
[40:08] these are these things are a practice
[40:10] you can do. They're not just
[40:11] intellectual ideas, right?
[40:13] Yeah.
[40:13] Yeah, well, I think that that is
[40:15] extremely important because um the whole
[40:18] movement from just holding these
[40:20] qualities like compassion as abstract
[40:22] values and breathing life into them and
[40:25] making them real is the whole point cuz
[40:27] otherwise it's just like a monument to
[40:29] someone else's experience and think,
[40:31] "Wow, fantastic. The Buddha, whatever
[40:33] year that was, Uh-huh. you know, sat
[40:36] under a tree in India. It's too bad I
[40:38] live in Manhattan, which is so noisy or
[40:40] you know, I can't do it. Everyone else
[40:42] can do it and I can't." That moment
[40:44] where we say, "I want to see what it's
[40:46] like for me."
[40:48] And you know, I may stumble. It may not
[40:50] be that easy, but I'm going to make it
[40:51] real for me. That's the whole point. It
[40:54] is.
[40:54] Um and the the particular practice about
[40:57] sympathetic joy I find very interesting.
[40:59] That's a quality that's talked about in
[41:02] the Buddhist tradition of actually
[41:04] feeling happiness for the happiness of
[41:06] others. Mhm. Instead of That's what we
[41:09] do.
[41:09] witnessing someone's success or good
[41:11] fortune and falling sway to the voice
[41:14] which so often arises within us which
[41:16] says, "Ooh, I wish you didn't have so
[41:18] much going for you right now." You know,
[41:20] like Yeah, that's what
[41:21] to lose everything, but if the light
[41:24] could just dim a bit, I'd feel better.
[41:27] Can you lead Can you Can you lead We
[41:28] have time. Can you lead a little
[41:30] bit right now?
[41:30] We'll see. Um Sharon, you want to lead
[41:33] us?
[41:33] Maybe. And so in contrast to that
[41:36] feeling sympathetic joy
[41:39] um is actually being happy for the
[41:41] happiness of someone else rather than
[41:43] feeling something's been taken away from
[41:45] us or feeling threatened or or
[41:47] frightened and and here too, I think
[41:49] there's a big cultural burden cuz I
[41:51] think we live in a culture by and large
[41:54] of
[41:54] uh feeling or being taught that we will
[41:57] feel better about ourselves by demeaning
[41:59] others, by putting others down.
[42:01] And so we see that all the time and it
[42:04] takes a lot
[42:04] We see it, but no, but it's it's it's
[42:06] it's done It's such a funny thing. It's
[42:07] done in such a regular practice. It's
[42:09] part of comedy. That's right.
[42:11] insult And yet if you ever put it in
[42:13] front of someone that they actually are
[42:15] negative like that, they're appalled.
[42:16] Yeah. Right? But it's But it's we we
[42:19] live and breathe it. Yeah, we do all the
[42:20] time and and And we laugh at it. We
[42:22] participate. You talk about bullying in
[42:25] in this book as well. Yeah. And so I
[42:27] think uh to step away and to want to
[42:31] uh be different is the most important
[42:34] thing. And then there are practices
[42:36] where we actually
[42:38] um we confront we challenge some of
[42:40] those ideas like there's a limited
[42:43] amount of happiness in this world and
[42:45] the more someone else has, the less
[42:47] there's going to be for me.
[42:48] when you look at it. I know, it's
[42:50] insane. Or that prize, that praise, that
[42:53] accolade was heading right toward me and
[42:56] somehow you intervened.
[42:58] Stole it. You stole it. Exactly. It's
[43:01] It's mine.
[43:01] Like a sandwich. Yeah. Um you know, so a
[43:05] lot of the practices
[43:07] is a direct confrontation. Just looking
[43:09] at those ideas and those thoughts and
[43:11] realizing, "That's crazy."
[43:13] So this psychological scarcity and
[43:15] trying to sort of break it down. Yeah.
[43:17] Our teacher would used to say that the
[43:19] lazy person's way to accumulate merit is
[43:22] to joyfully congratulate mentally every
[43:25] good thing that any other person does.
[43:27] Like read the paper and look to see
[43:29] anything people achieve. As the antidote
[43:31] also to envy which or competitiveness
[43:33] which is what we normally react when
[43:35] somebody else gets a good And the lazy
[43:37] person do you If if you don't do it
[43:39] yourself,
[43:40] somebody else did it and then you feel
[43:41] really joy, you get some of the merit of
[43:43] that accomplishment.
[43:44] Yeah, that's fabulous, isn't it?
[43:45] Yeah, it really is nice. And on the
[43:47] other hand, there's a slight warning in
[43:48] that that it when somebody if somebody
[43:51] robs a bank or does something,
[43:53] if you sort of think, "Gee whiz, how did
[43:55] they do that?"
[43:55] That's awesome.
[43:57] Really? They get a lot of it if they
[43:58] don't go to jail to buy the rights to
[44:00] the story. The crime of it.
[44:02] Buy the rights from jail.
[44:04] works. I thought there was one last
[44:06] thing that I thought um cuz there's so
[44:08] many different tones in this in this
[44:10] share stuff that you guys share. I
[44:12] thought you would explain this
[44:13] particularly well, Dad, and I wanted to
[44:15] um read this cuz it's so so sort of one
[44:18] of one of your logical sort of
[44:20] processes, but um you're more clear than
[44:23] sometimes you are in this one.
[44:25] Um
[44:26] but uh which is basic this concept that
[44:28] tolerance, which is another big word
[44:30] that you talk about tolerating others
[44:32] being the relief from suffering and and
[44:34] you and you put this kind of a nice
[44:36] little path together.
[44:38] Of course, it's never too short when
[44:39] it's written by my dad. But um
[44:42] uh
[44:43] tolerance is the small beginning of
[44:45] freedom from being irritated by pain.
[44:48] We build that tolerance into real
[44:50] patience which gets stronger and
[44:53] stronger under the pressures of everyday
[44:55] life.
[44:57] Tolerating discomfort gives us the
[44:58] ability to endure
[45:00] which leads us to an inner release from
[45:03] the force of circumstances making real
[45:06] happiness possible.
[45:07] We develop patience not to experience
[45:10] fleeting pleasure, but to develop
[45:12] transcendent detachment. Transcendent
[45:15] detached toler- Oh, sorry. Now Now you
[45:17] switched the words. Transcendent
[45:19] detachment Transcendent tolerance means
[45:21] freedom from fear of any kind of
[45:24] suffering.
[45:25] Nothing that comes our way throws us.
[45:28] This is the only happiness that endures.
[45:31] I almost got through that properly.
[45:33] Um but uh trans- transcendent tolerance
[45:37] night. Enjoyable. But Well, you give it
[45:39] You give a logical
[45:41] explanation here of you know, like a lot
[45:44] of people hear this word tolerance. They
[45:45] don't want to be tolerant. No, I don't
[45:46] want to be saying be more tolerant. I'm
[45:48] tolerant enough.
[45:49] Right? But you you you explain very well
[45:51] here that this idea of endurance is the
[45:53] root
[45:55] uh tolerance endurance is the root to
[45:56] actually being able to experience life
[45:58] in a happy way.
[45:59] Sure. Ancient Buddhist slogan, no pain,
[46:01] no gain.
[46:04] So what is transcendent tolerance? Well,
[46:07] transcendent is where you really have
[46:09] reached the point where you are free of
[46:12] attachment to anything that any anything
[46:14] that can absorb any harm. So therefore
[46:17] you there's nothing can You cannot be
[46:18] harmed.
[46:19] tolerate everything, basically.
[46:20] Yes. For example, it's like it's like
[46:23] Neo in the Matrix.
[46:25] Neo in the Matrix had reached the point
[46:27] where nothing could harm him because he
[46:30] was the whole Matrix. So he had realized
[46:31] he was one with everything. Why I love
[46:34] that film is not really the shooting and
[46:36] the this and that, but it's the that's
[46:38] that a lesson. But what I love about it
[46:40] is the living in an illusory reality and
[46:43] then because of the believability of the
[46:45] sci-fi setup, people get the experience
[46:48] of being in the reality and yet
[46:50] realizing that you're made of you're
[46:52] just a computer simulation. You're
[46:54] You're made of light, really. Made of
[46:56] pure energy. And so because of that, he
[46:58] can't be harmed. And the third one, he
[47:00] finally defeats the bad guy who he has
[47:02] actually who's almost close to him in
[47:04] that achievement. But But because he is
[47:07] not quite the bad guy still separate
[47:09] still wants to dominate.
[47:11] But when he merges with with um Neo, he
[47:15] thinks he's going to absorb Neo who's
[47:16] going to be a dominator like him, but he
[47:19] becomes a giver like Neo. He becomes
[47:22] transcendentally tolerant and so he
[47:24] becomes Neo instead and that's how Neo
[47:26] defeats him. Because the one who's
[47:28] completely open even to melt and finds
[47:30] the bliss in melting and thereby is is
[47:33] un- un- unharmable because they are the
[47:36] entire Matrix at the same time as acting
[47:38] for the good within it, uh they are um
[47:41] transcendentally tolerant. So they
[47:42] transcend any harm, that means.
[47:45] So that's your root to oneness. But you
[47:48] give a good path here that um you know,
[47:49] through tolerance
[47:50] Thank you, sweetie. I'm glad.
[47:51] that there's It's just a real pleasure
[47:53] to hear your own child
[47:55] read that.
[47:57] There's hope to to there being some
[47:59] value to patience. Yes. A true value.
[48:02] Yes, which Yes, which I don't have and I
[48:04] keep trying to I've improved over the
[48:05] years, haven't I? I've improved a little
[48:07] bit. Certainly. A little.
[48:09] Very much.
[48:10] Still a little impatient, I get.
[48:12] Well,
[48:13] no one's perfect.
[48:15] Buddha is, actually.
[48:18] There we are. We found a few Buddhas.
[48:20] Yeah. Perfect Buddha.
[48:22] There will be some Buddhas.
[48:23] in you. We have the hope of being
[48:25] Actually, it's important for us to have
[48:26] the hope that there is some kind of
[48:28] perfection that we can achieve. It's
[48:30] important to have that hope. Gives us a
[48:32] thing to strive for. In the midst of
[48:34] enjoying this and that, the idea that
[48:37] there is perfection in the world, that
[48:38] the world that naturally is perfect.
[48:41] If it wasn't messed with, it would be
[48:42] perfect. Is a very different view from
[48:45] the idea that it's awful, but there's
[48:47] some omnipotent being who sort of made
[48:48] it like that to teach us something and
[48:50] then they're perfect and they'll kind of
[48:53] put us in the choir and we'll be happy
[48:54] later. This All these models of or the
[48:57] materialist thing that it's all nothing
[48:59] and everything we do is meaningless and
[49:00] pointless.
[49:01] The all In those models are In case
[49:03] there is evidence for them, well, all
[49:05] the better. We'll examine that. But
[49:08] the Buddhist thing is that Buddhist
[49:09] scientific thing is that reality is such
[49:12] that if if if left alone, it's perfect.
[49:15] So if you let go of it all, you'll be
[49:18] all right type of thing.
[49:20] Which puts you in a different framework,
[49:22] actually. Puts you in a positive
[49:23] context. Context of natural radiance
[49:26] with the negative things only being
[49:28] casual visit- accidental visitors
[49:32] who therefore can be embraced within
[49:33] that the natural perfection, actually,
[49:35] rather than feared. That's another
[49:37] important point.
[49:39] Getting rid of anger and hatred is not a
[49:42] matter of just suppressing it and it and
[49:45] and making it an enemy that you got rid
[49:46] of.
[49:47] When you get rid of being taken over by
[49:50] anger, the energy of anger, which is a
[49:52] kind of heat, a kind of forcefulness,
[49:55] you can use for fierce love and fierce
[49:57] compassion. Because you'll never be
[49:59] destructive because it will never be
[50:00] guided into a destructive way. It'll be
[50:03] guided into something creative always.
[50:06] And those energy like anger transmuted
[50:08] is intelligence actually.
[50:10] Because intelligence wants to take
[50:12] things apart to analyze them, to
[50:13] understand them. Like anger wants to
[50:15] take them apart to destroy them. But
[50:17] intelligence wants to take them apart to
[50:19] understand how they are put together.
[50:21] Doesn't want to harm them. Wants to
[50:22] improve how they are. So, even desire
[50:26] can be you know, that's in tantra.
[50:29] Envy even.
[50:30] This it has a green color in tantra and
[50:33] it becomes the all accomplishing or the
[50:35] wonder working wisdom. When people
[50:37] rejoice in each other's achievement,
[50:39] then they can cooperate and work
[50:41] together. When they work together,
[50:42] there's nothing they can't get done.
[50:44] When they're competing and envying each
[50:46] other and each one wanting to go in
[50:47] front of the they nothing gets done
[50:49] because all they do is I I want to do it
[50:51] and if I can't do it, I'm going to
[50:52] destroy it.
[50:54] Sort of routine, right? Mhm. And so that
[50:57] even envy can be transmuted. I'm not
[50:58] sure how cuz it's a kind of
[51:00] sickening energy, but
[51:01] Well,
[51:02] through it But apparently that's the
[51:04] color green.
[51:05] There's that admiration in in envy,
[51:07] right? There's some admiration.
[51:08] Yes, that's right. I guess. Oh, thank
[51:09] you. Yes. But um
[51:13] underneath it all. Yes.
[51:15] Um maybe should we take a question or
[51:17] two? Yes, sure. Any questions? Or do are
[51:19] there were there written ones or are
[51:20] people
[51:21] No, no. There it's it's people
[51:22] there you are. Oh. Yes, people.
[51:26] I felt so lost in the darkness out
[51:28] there.
[51:28] I know. You you were completely
[51:30] There's all those smiling faces. Hey.
[51:36] Any question? Anyone?
[51:38] Yes.
[51:42] Hi. Thank you so far. It's been really
[51:44] awesome.
[51:45] I wanted to know is it possible to love
[51:49] your enemy when you no longer are in
[51:53] contact with them? When there was like
[51:56] intense betrayal, deceit,
[51:59] um
[52:00] and
[52:01] horrible betrayal.
[52:04] I have a trouble hearing but I heard it
[52:05] so well.
[52:05] So, I I think we were supposed to repeat
[52:07] the question a little bit.
[52:09] So, the question was how do you once
[52:11] you've separated from the person who's
[52:14] harmed you and really injured you,
[52:15] betrayed you and really hurt you?
[52:18] Oh, yeah. How do you deal with trying to
[52:20] develop how deal with that away from
[52:22] them once you've departed from them?
[52:24] Mhm. Stay away. Yeah.
[52:27] I think it's very important not to
[52:29] confuse
[52:31] like the inner work we do not to be
[52:34] consumed with someone else's actions or
[52:37] even worse defined by someone else's
[52:40] actions.
[52:41] That's the work of freedom and that's
[52:43] different than inviting them back into
[52:46] your life or
[52:47] into your home or or having contact, you
[52:50] know, that's that's a separate choice
[52:53] based on discernment and
[52:55] mindfulness of context, you know, is it
[52:58] is it safe? Is it wise
[53:00] to have contact or to resume contact but
[53:04] within ourselves. You know how we can go
[53:07] through the list of someone's faults and
[53:09] then we go through it again and then we
[53:11] go through it again. We haven't
[53:12] discovered new faults. It's the same
[53:14] list but we go through it again and we
[53:16] go through it again and like so much of
[53:18] our own life energy is now given over to
[53:21] this other person and their behavior.
[53:23] So, we want to recapture that. We want
[53:26] to be whole. We want to be free. But
[53:28] that actually doesn't have any
[53:29] implication about the one correct action
[53:33] to take.
[53:34] Right, right.
[53:35] in reality. Yeah, Martin makes me think
[53:37] of Martin Luther King
[53:39] when he was beaten up on that bridge in
[53:41] Birmingham, I think it was.
[53:43] And then he went off and did other
[53:44] things. I think they had the march and
[53:45] they did a lot of other things and then
[53:46] they were going to go back to that
[53:48] bridge and his friend, I think Lewis
[53:50] tells the story. And Dr. Lewis and he
[53:53] said that people were saying to him,
[53:54] well, you have to go you need anger to
[53:57] go across there. You have to hate those
[53:58] people and then you will confront them.
[54:00] And King said, "No, I'm going to go
[54:02] there and I'm nervous about it but I
[54:05] won't carry the burden of hatred. That's
[54:07] too bitter a burden to bear." is what he
[54:10] said. So, in a way, if they've harmed
[54:12] you and they've been up you've been hurt
[54:14] by it, then if you've gotten away from
[54:16] them, that's good. And if you're
[54:18] carrying the hurt still in your mind,
[54:21] then you're adding hurting yourself Mhm.
[54:24] to them hurting it. So, the key there is
[54:26] to to somehow the way of empowering
[54:29] yourself is to somehow say, well,
[54:31] whatever it was, I must have had a part
[54:33] in it. I must have The Buddhist thing is
[54:35] very helpful because you had previous
[54:37] life experience. So, you can always
[54:39] blame yourself as the victim by saying I
[54:42] hurt that person in a previous life.
[54:43] That's really nice. Even the
[54:45] sociologist, German sociologist Max
[54:47] Weber really liked that. He said that
[54:49] the multi-life perspective gives you the
[54:50] best method of moral accounting that
[54:53] humanity ever devised. He didn't believe
[54:55] in it, of course, but he just said it
[54:56] was made it very made things fit
[54:58] injustice fit.
[55:00] But the point is it's used in Buddhism
[55:02] to to so that you can then say, well, I
[55:05] have views that I used that hurt that
[55:07] was given to me to expiate whatever
[55:09] negative thing there is about myself and
[55:11] I no longer will bother being bitter
[55:13] about and resenting and carrying the
[55:15] burden of the person who hurt me. Of
[55:17] course, I'll stay away from them.
[55:19] Doesn't mean I won't invite them but I
[55:21] won't carry around a grudge and a hatred
[55:23] and a
[55:24] secret wish to revenge and you don't
[55:25] make that make that the driving force of
[55:28] my life is revenge because then that
[55:30] just makes more trouble for me. You
[55:33] know, it's it's not to for the sake
[55:35] forgiving is not for the sake of the
[55:37] forgiven.
[55:38] It's for the sake of the forgiver
[55:40] because it frees them from the from
[55:43] carrying dragging on the suffering that
[55:45] they received, you know.
[55:47] Right? Is that that cool? I think that's
[55:49] worth
[55:50] And we don't have the future former
[55:51] future life thing in our culture yet but
[55:54] we'll get it.
[55:56] If I look and only live another 20 or 30
[55:58] years.
[55:59] It's so obvious actually worldwide and
[56:01] it's the majority of human beings are
[56:02] aware of it. And this idea that we came
[56:05] out of nothing and we go into nothing is
[56:06] just completely irrational actually and
[56:08] leads to the responsibility of the
[56:11] materialist culture that is currently
[56:12] wrecking the planet actually.
[56:14] But that's another story.
[56:17] Another question.
[56:21] Thank you. My name is Ronnie.
[56:23] And you speak about the inner experience
[56:26] which we all react to. That's in part
[56:29] what our life is. It's our inner
[56:31] experience.
[56:32] Um but I'm curious what advice you might
[56:34] have in getting past the point of when
[56:38] you are stuck on something and you can't
[56:40] let go or you don't let go. What what
[56:43] skill set does one need to let go? To
[56:47] move on? To have a more positive
[56:49] experience? I'm curious to know your
[56:51] reaction to that.
[56:54] Uh so the question was about those
[56:57] moments when we actually cannot let go.
[56:59] We're just stuck and what skill set do
[57:02] we need in order to accomplish that? To
[57:05] be able to let go and move on. And I
[57:06] love that you used the phrase skill set.
[57:10] Um because I think that's really what it
[57:12] is, you know. Sometimes we think of
[57:14] compassion, I don't know exactly what it
[57:16] is. Somehow we have this conditioning
[57:18] that we think of something like
[57:19] compassion
[57:21] as a gift and you either have it or you
[57:23] don't and if you don't, you're out of
[57:25] luck or maybe it's a spontaneous
[57:28] emotional expression but in Eastern
[57:31] psychology absolutely it's something
[57:33] that is trainable. It's a skill.
[57:36] And it's seen as trainable because
[57:39] attention is trainable and it depends on
[57:41] how we pay attention. That's what will
[57:44] be the the ground out of which a quality
[57:46] like compassion can emerge. And so some
[57:49] of what we do is really it's a little
[57:51] bit like what I talked about before.
[57:53] Instead of seeing our stuckness
[57:56] and our bitterness and our anger as bad
[57:58] and wrong and terrible, we really tune
[58:01] into how painful it is.
[58:03] And that's the birth of compassion for
[58:05] ourselves, which doesn't mean weakness
[58:07] and it doesn't mean condoning something
[58:11] but it's really such incredible
[58:13] tenderness and care for ourselves and
[58:16] then we decide what we need to do.
[58:18] So, once you acknowledge, you then
[58:21] can possibly let go and move on. Well,
[58:24] you can. I mean what the comment was
[58:25] once you acknowledge, then you can
[58:27] possibly let go and move on. And we we
[58:30] let go, which doesn't mean we hurl
[58:31] something away or we try to repress it
[58:34] or deny it. It means that we care about
[58:37] ourselves so much
[58:39] that we make some choices. And that
[58:42] doesn't mean um that
[58:45] for people, a lot of people, you know,
[58:47] that there's going to be like the one
[58:48] great through break through experience
[58:50] that it's all done.
[58:52] You know, I've worked through all my
[58:54] anger at so-and-so in one shot and that
[58:56] was a great sitting, you know, and now
[58:59] I'm free. It's not like that. You know,
[59:01] we fall back and then we pick ourselves
[59:04] up and we go forward cuz we understand
[59:06] where our deepest happiness is to be
[59:08] found and then we fall down again and
[59:10] then we start over and and if anything
[59:14] meditation teaches us as a skill, it's
[59:17] being able to begin again.
[59:19] You know, we're present, we're lost, we
[59:21] start over. We're here, we get
[59:23] distracted, we start over. With a I'm a
[59:26] new meditator. That's excellent.
[59:28] The more
[59:29] Uh-huh. I'm very new at it. That's
[59:31] fabulous. So, she's coming is that she's
[59:33] been meditating
[59:35] for 120 days. That's great.
[59:38] Yes, that's great. In one sitting in one
[59:41] in one retreat, you mean? No, no, no.
[59:43] Just just started out 120 days ago. Oh,
[59:46] 120 but you've been counting the days?
[59:48] You are really well organized.
[59:51] That's fantastic. You're going to
[59:52] definitely be free of that injury or
[59:54] whatever. Yeah, no, that's fabulous.
[59:56] That's really great. You could join
[59:58] these two and and join the competitive
[1:00:00] meditation club.
[1:00:02] That's right. Well, then you know about
[1:00:05] and others might not that that what
[1:00:07] mindfulness that Sharon teaches is where
[1:00:09] you learn to you know, counting your
[1:00:12] breath and then you see all these
[1:00:13] different thoughts that arise among them
[1:00:15] would be the thought that would not be
[1:00:16] letting go of that injury and you learn
[1:00:19] to dismount from a train of thought. And
[1:00:22] you then you learn to see the different
[1:00:24] variety of trains of thought and at
[1:00:26] first when you do that, you suddenly
[1:00:28] feel, oh, this is really bad because now
[1:00:31] I'm having so many more trains of
[1:00:32] thought but you're not. You're actually
[1:00:33] becoming aware that there are all these
[1:00:35] different levels of thought constantly
[1:00:37] distracting going on in your mind and
[1:00:39] you learn the freedom to choose. I
[1:00:41] always like to say it's like you you are
[1:00:43] a TV set that has finally achieved
[1:00:45] clicker hood.
[1:00:47] So, you can change the channel. You can
[1:00:48] mute the commercial. You can you can
[1:00:51] learn to change channels and you can
[1:00:53] change channel over that injury and that
[1:00:55] betrayal and that horrible thing that
[1:00:56] that person did and that doesn't change
[1:00:58] that they did that although you know, I
[1:01:00] one thing I always want to say about the
[1:01:02] people have injured one another in the
[1:01:03] past because of the possibility and the
[1:01:05] danger of a future life
[1:01:07] never be too harsh with your exes.
[1:01:11] Because you'll fall in love with them
[1:01:13] and marry them again in the next life.
[1:01:17] And then and then you don't want to have
[1:01:18] a bad breakup in that next life either.
[1:01:21] So, you know, be sort of try to
[1:01:23] reconcile yourself about the exes.
[1:01:25] Although stay away from them too is also
[1:01:27] good.
[1:01:30] Maybe be happy about them on their own,
[1:01:32] you know. Is someone That's the thing.
[1:01:33] Yes.
[1:01:38] Well, I think the lady second over right
[1:01:40] there was a little person. I think there
[1:01:42] are also some people there. Hi, I'm
[1:01:43] wondering well, first of all, I look
[1:01:45] forward to reading the book. Um but I'm
[1:01:47] wondering what do you suggest for
[1:01:51] seeing other people who suffer that you
[1:01:53] love and they're not dealing with their
[1:01:56] own suffering thus it makes one sad to
[1:02:00] see that their own suffering. Their
[1:02:02] other person's suffering.
[1:02:04] What can you do with
[1:02:06] the suffering caused by seeing someone
[1:02:08] else suffer?
[1:02:11] So, the question was what can you do
[1:02:14] by the sorrow or the suffering that we
[1:02:16] experience by seeing someone else suffer
[1:02:18] and not being able to fix it. You know,
[1:02:22] is the other part of it. Is is
[1:02:24] recognizing a certain degree of
[1:02:26] powerlessness.
[1:02:27] Um
[1:02:28] and I think I mean that my favorite word
[1:02:31] of all. I don't know how many times I
[1:02:33] use it in the book. Uh my very favorite
[1:02:36] word is poignancy.
[1:02:38] I think life is very poignant and
[1:02:41] particularly because of that we can love
[1:02:43] someone so much and care about them so
[1:02:46] much and not just cuz we're nosy but we
[1:02:49] pretty well see what they might do to be
[1:02:52] a whole lot happier
[1:02:54] and we can't make it so. We just don't
[1:02:57] have that kind of control over
[1:02:59] the unfolding events. It doesn't mean we
[1:03:01] can't do anything.
[1:03:02] And we should, you know, try and be
[1:03:05] there and say whatever we say and be as
[1:03:07] skillful as we can but
[1:03:10] there needs to be a kind of equanimity
[1:03:12] or balance. Not apathy, not indifference
[1:03:14] but real balance because first of all
[1:03:17] what we see in front of us isn't
[1:03:19] necessarily the end of the story. It's
[1:03:21] this iteration. Right? And if we do
[1:03:25] something or say something, maybe it's
[1:03:27] like planting a seed and we can't insist
[1:03:29] that the seed bear fruit. We can't
[1:03:32] successfully insist that the seed bear
[1:03:35] fruit in the way we want in the time
[1:03:37] frame we have.
[1:03:38] Um but we need to plant the seed. We
[1:03:41] need to be there in as genuine and
[1:03:44] and caring a way as possible and then
[1:03:46] understand life is very big.
[1:03:48] And that um
[1:03:50] we cannot insist. We cannot dominate or
[1:03:54] control someone else's choices. And it's
[1:03:57] one thing to feel the poignancy and feel
[1:03:58] the sorrow. It's another thing to feel
[1:04:01] exhausted and to feel overcome and to
[1:04:05] feel despair which if we look at that
[1:04:09] state then often the secret ingredient
[1:04:11] is feeling we should be able to fix it.
[1:04:15] We should be able to control it. And and
[1:04:18] that leads nowhere.
[1:04:19] You know, so the reality of of seeing
[1:04:22] things as they are actually gives us a
[1:04:24] kind of balance so we can hang in there
[1:04:26] even longer and be there in a a more
[1:04:30] beautiful and and genuine way.
[1:04:32] They say that
[1:04:34] false compassion
[1:04:36] is um
[1:04:37] or rather ineffectual and exhausting
[1:04:40] compassion
[1:04:41] uh
[1:04:42] which is is coupled with ignorance
[1:04:46] and with a lack of wisdom about the
[1:04:48] nature of reality. And the first level
[1:04:50] of compassion which is stirred by seeing
[1:04:53] the suffering of another
[1:04:54] is
[1:04:56] coupled with the wisdom of impermanence.
[1:05:01] And the reason I think perhaps that they
[1:05:03] say that is that in knowledge of
[1:05:05] impermanence is is awareness of the
[1:05:07] changeability what you're saying. And
[1:05:09] that they may be suffering but there
[1:05:12] will be change. So, it isn't a hopeless
[1:05:14] compassion.
[1:05:16] A kind of oh, the poor thing but coupled
[1:05:18] with the idea that they'll always be
[1:05:20] that way.
[1:05:21] Uh and therefore feeling of helplessness
[1:05:23] and that they're helpless and you're
[1:05:24] helpless sort of freeze framing their
[1:05:26] suffering into some sort of thing and
[1:05:29] separating yourself from it in a way by
[1:05:31] feeling that it's like that. It has the
[1:05:33] formulation of compassion. Oh, the poor
[1:05:35] thing. But it's a kind of impotent pity
[1:05:38] that is not helpful to either the person
[1:05:40] who feels it or the person who and even
[1:05:43] it makes the person who's suffering even
[1:05:45] annoyed. So, the So, you have to
[1:05:47] cultivate wisdom.
[1:05:49] And the first level of wisdom is called
[1:05:50] the wisdom of of impermanence. Which
[1:05:53] which has subtle and and of course
[1:05:56] forms, you know, gross and subtle forms.
[1:05:59] And the subtle form is being aware that
[1:06:01] things change momentarily all the time.
[1:06:03] And um
[1:06:05] and then they that can build up to other
[1:06:07] levels where um maybe the maybe one of
[1:06:10] the keys when if you build your wisdom
[1:06:12] more is you'll you'll remain happy.
[1:06:15] We somehow have the wrong idea that
[1:06:17] feeling compassion must be in if we're
[1:06:19] to be genuinely compassionate, we must
[1:06:20] be agonized over the suffering of
[1:06:22] another. But actually our own agonizing
[1:06:25] over doesn't help them.
[1:06:27] And if we really realize the impermanent
[1:06:28] nature that things will change and so
[1:06:31] so forth and so on we'll maybe see it
[1:06:33] from another angle and they will at
[1:06:35] least feel that we are not dragged into
[1:06:38] it with them.
[1:06:39] And if we flaunt that, that will it
[1:06:42] really annoy them and will be cruel. But
[1:06:44] if we just
[1:06:45] don't flaunt it but we feel it that fact
[1:06:48] that we are next to them without being
[1:06:50] sucked into their misery will help them,
[1:06:52] they say, you know. I think something
[1:06:54] like that. There's other two other
[1:06:56] levels of compassion. The the first one
[1:06:59] where it starts is impermanence, right?
[1:07:01] And there's also there's a a close
[1:07:04] connection between generosity and
[1:07:06] compassion cuz it's like a generosity of
[1:07:08] the spirit and we know we can give a
[1:07:11] gift in all kinds of different ways. We
[1:07:13] could certainly give a gift and think,
[1:07:15] oh, you have that great thing. Maybe
[1:07:17] I'll give you this and you'll give me
[1:07:18] that. So, it's really a medium of
[1:07:20] exchange or thank me, would you? You
[1:07:23] know, and thank me again and later.
[1:07:25] Whatever it is, you know, or we can just
[1:07:27] give it which is a very different thing
[1:07:30] and that kind of giving has to come from
[1:07:32] a place of inner abundance.
[1:07:35] You know, if we feel we could never do
[1:07:37] enough, that what we do is going to make
[1:07:38] no what we give is going to make no
[1:07:40] difference. It's so meager. It's so
[1:07:42] measly, then it's not going to be a
[1:07:44] freely given gift. And so um that's also
[1:07:47] a skill that we cultivate in the
[1:07:50] deepening of compassion is that kind of
[1:07:52] offering. What you made me think of is
[1:07:55] my lately I'm becoming sort of soft on
[1:07:57] the British.
[1:07:59] As an American
[1:08:01] as an American I always had a thing
[1:08:02] about the Brits.
[1:08:04] About the Brits, you know.
[1:08:09] But lately what what you made me think
[1:08:11] of is
[1:08:13] Oh, I who knows.
[1:08:16] Jeff Bridges
[1:08:18] but the point is that
[1:08:21] I know.
[1:08:22] I have some sort of
[1:08:23] My my my bloodline sort of British but I
[1:08:26] think I was a Mongolian in those days.
[1:08:28] But but my point is that I really gotten
[1:08:30] to appreciate the British thing of like
[1:08:33] offering someone a cup of tea.
[1:08:36] The old cup of tea routine.
[1:08:38] It's really it probably is what was the
[1:08:40] secret of the British Empire, you know.
[1:08:42] The bombs just fell. The house fell
[1:08:45] down. St. James was just blasted by a V1
[1:08:47] rocket of Hitler etc. And then they sit
[1:08:50] around. They clean things up and they
[1:08:51] patch up some people and they have a cup
[1:08:53] of tea.
[1:08:54] They give them a cup of tea. A miserable
[1:08:56] person, offer them a cup of tea.
[1:09:00] Something maybe. It's a cup of tea.
[1:09:02] Like something a little The impermanence
[1:09:04] like affirming that whatever it is might
[1:09:07] pass. We'll have a cup of tea.
[1:09:09] Right? The worst things happen in
[1:09:11] Downton Abbey. Although I didn't like
[1:09:13] that auto accident.
[1:09:15] I don't like that. That sucked that auto
[1:09:18] accident.
[1:09:19] And they they should be disqualified.
[1:09:25] But that was no good. But otherwise the
[1:09:27] cup of tea is good. Okay.
[1:09:30] Maybe it's Downton Abbey that There's
[1:09:32] someone over there. Yes.
[1:09:36] Hi.
[1:09:37] I have a loud voice. I'll just talk.
[1:09:41] So, I heard you say about how you can't
[1:09:43] control your feelings, which people say
[1:09:46] a lot, and obviously anger is one of
[1:09:48] those feelings that you can't control.
[1:09:50] Personally, I have a lot of problems
[1:09:53] controlling my anger.
[1:09:55] And being told that I can't control it
[1:09:58] doesn't help. So, I understand I I like
[1:10:00] this skill set
[1:10:02] um
[1:10:03] method, and I understand like the
[1:10:05] meditation part of it, but what are and
[1:10:09] and I I know I have to buy the book to
[1:10:10] find out the rest.
[1:10:13] No, you don't. What are some of the
[1:10:14] other Uh-huh. methods that we can go
[1:10:16] about to let go of revenge? Uh-huh. Mhm.
[1:10:20] manage our anger. Meditation is good.
[1:10:21] Let me say one thing.
[1:10:23] One of the key things about getting rid
[1:10:25] of any addiction
[1:10:27] is realizing that it's not good for you.
[1:10:30] Right. That's a very you the resolve
[1:10:32] that that is bad. That harms me, it
[1:10:35] harms others. Right? We they all say,
[1:10:37] you know, the person who is drinks, the
[1:10:39] person who is hooked on something, they
[1:10:42] they have rationalizations of why oh,
[1:10:43] this is good this is okay. I'm I've got
[1:10:45] it under control. It's all right. It
[1:10:47] won't really hurt me. It's maybe it's
[1:10:48] good. I don't know.
[1:10:50] So, the first step is to the first very
[1:10:52] first thing in the skill set is again a
[1:10:54] wisdom thing.
[1:10:55] It's looking through experience at how
[1:10:58] anger has served you or anybody else in
[1:11:00] the world and coming to the decide
[1:11:02] decision that it's something I should be
[1:11:04] free of. And here, there's a very key
[1:11:06] point which we discuss a lot in here,
[1:11:09] which is that
[1:11:11] just being forceful in opposing what is
[1:11:15] wrong is not necessarily anger.
[1:11:18] There can be a kind of way of being
[1:11:19] forceful where you're totally in control
[1:11:22] and you're making a judgment and you're
[1:11:24] just opposing something. You're being
[1:11:25] critical or you're stopping you're
[1:11:27] putting your body in front of something
[1:11:29] to stop an injury or something like
[1:11:31] that. And that's done out of certain
[1:11:33] with a high energy, and that's not what
[1:11:35] we're talking about the real anger
[1:11:37] that's destructive. The one that's
[1:11:38] destructive is where you it takes you
[1:11:41] over and you and they have all these
[1:11:43] neuroscientific studies and
[1:11:44] psychological studies where you lose 80%
[1:11:46] of your good judgment. You become
[1:11:48] reckless and careless. You overdo it.
[1:11:50] You hurt yourself. You hurt other people
[1:11:53] cuz you're out of control. Your body and
[1:11:55] mind and speech are a tool of this
[1:11:58] hating energy that completely makes you,
[1:12:02] you know, senseless in a way. Makes you
[1:12:04] mad. We have the expression mad. It's
[1:12:06] when you get really mad that it's that
[1:12:09] it's bad. So, the the first step is to
[1:12:11] decide that it is it's harmful to you
[1:12:14] and others.
[1:12:15] And then the this there's another second
[1:12:17] step is to understand the mechanism that
[1:12:19] Shantideva has a beautiful verse. He
[1:12:21] says, "When I understand that the fuel
[1:12:24] of anger is frustration,
[1:12:27] a sense of mental discomfort,
[1:12:29] and then I let it build up inside and
[1:12:31] get more and more uncomfortable, and
[1:12:32] then it blows up and takes me over."
[1:12:34] When you're when you get to observe that
[1:12:36] and that you did a lead meditation, I
[1:12:37] think the skill set of meditation is to
[1:12:39] become really aware of how that works.
[1:12:41] But here, I want to say one thing. Women
[1:12:43] in our society are socialized to take
[1:12:46] too much punishment.
[1:12:48] And we guys are socialized to be too
[1:12:50] pushy without and act like we're
[1:12:53] supposed supposed to.
[1:12:54] And so, women tend to think that they
[1:12:57] need a forcefulness to counter that to
[1:13:00] to assert themselves. And they do, and
[1:13:03] they should do that.
[1:13:04] But when they if they hold they use the
[1:13:07] social let the socialization so that
[1:13:10] they are polite as the idiot rambles on,
[1:13:14] and they are sort of feeling more and
[1:13:15] more frustrated as the idiot is
[1:13:17] espousing some
[1:13:19] repeating some news
[1:13:21] some news item
[1:13:23] from one of the news channels, and
[1:13:26] they're just repeating what they were
[1:13:27] brainwashed into repeating. And then the
[1:13:29] woman blows up and reacts, and then that
[1:13:31] makes the guy madder, and then it's just
[1:13:33] unravels in a negative way. So, the key
[1:13:35] there is to assert yourself earlier
[1:13:40] when you still have a sense of humor and
[1:13:42] you're still cheerful, and like my wife
[1:13:45] used to do when I would get mad and
[1:13:46] explain things to her
[1:13:48] and like about how awful something is,
[1:13:51] and she would say,
[1:13:52] "Why don't you shut up ahead of time
[1:13:54] before we're both mad?"
[1:13:59] And Uma can attest, she is very quick at
[1:14:02] the rapier humorous statement that's
[1:14:04] forceful before she's mad.
[1:14:07] And sometimes afterwards, that's
[1:14:09] different.
[1:14:11] But before. And and then you then the
[1:14:14] guy can take it because there's a
[1:14:15] humorous element to it, and although at
[1:14:17] first it's like da da da da da da da my
[1:14:20] male momentum is being not honored or
[1:14:22] something, so then there can be a
[1:14:23] pomposity, there can be mobilized, but
[1:14:26] you basically will restrain yourself,
[1:14:27] and then they can go on a better plane.
[1:14:30] So, so
[1:14:32] the women without women asserting
[1:14:34] themselves, this planet will not
[1:14:35] survive. But if you wait to assert
[1:14:38] yourself out of anger and getting mad,
[1:14:41] you will do so unskillfully and it will
[1:14:43] not be effective. So, please assert
[1:14:45] yourself. Be rude ahead of time.
[1:14:48] Use your intuition and tell us to shut
[1:14:50] up ahead of time. And I will now shut
[1:14:52] up.
[1:14:54] Uh but I I also want to say that when
[1:14:56] people such as myself suggest that we
[1:14:59] cannot control what we're feeling, like
[1:15:01] we can't control our anger, that means
[1:15:03] we can't stop it arising.
[1:15:06] That doesn't mean we can't control how
[1:15:08] it manifests or we can't affect um what
[1:15:11] we're going to do with it, which we
[1:15:12] absolutely can and have to, especially
[1:15:14] if it's been damaging or destructive in
[1:15:17] some way. But if you think about how we
[1:15:20] so often blame ourselves
[1:15:23] for what we feel, which we cannot stop.
[1:15:27] One of my meditation teachers said to me
[1:15:29] once, early teachers, cuz I was all
[1:15:31] flipped out about something that was
[1:15:33] coming up in my mind, she said something
[1:15:35] like, "Why are you so upset about this
[1:15:37] thought that has come up in your mind?
[1:15:39] Did you invite it?
[1:15:40] Did you say at 3:15, I'd like to be
[1:15:42] filled with self-hatred, please?" Like,
[1:15:44] no.
[1:15:45] But when conditions come together for
[1:15:47] something to arise, it will arise. That
[1:15:50] doesn't mean we just have to fall into
[1:15:51] it and get overcome by it. And there's
[1:15:54] the key difference. But we also don't
[1:15:56] have to blame ourselves so bitterly, you
[1:15:58] know. I've been meditating for 40 years.
[1:16:00] Why do I feel this? I shouldn't feel
[1:16:02] this anymore. Spent $10,000 in therapy
[1:16:05] just last year. It should be gone, you
[1:16:07] know. Should be angry about that. Yes.
[1:16:10] I'm even angrier now that I think about
[1:16:12] that, you know. Um that's not that's not
[1:16:16] generative. That's not onward leading.
[1:16:18] Where you can capture all that energy
[1:16:21] into what we can do, which is changing
[1:16:24] our relationship to it. And that begins
[1:16:26] with knowing what we're feeling because
[1:16:29] it's not uncommon to be steaming and not
[1:16:32] even know it.
[1:16:33] And it's building, and we My favorite
[1:16:36] example is go off to the computer, and
[1:16:39] we type out the email, and we press
[1:16:41] send. And then 2 hours later, we go,
[1:16:44] "Whoops.
[1:16:46] I guess I said that with some hostility,
[1:16:48] didn't I? I may not get what I want."
[1:16:53] Thomas Jefferson said, "If you're angry,
[1:16:54] count take 10 deep breaths."
[1:16:57] And he said, "If you're really angry,
[1:16:59] take a hundred."
[1:17:01] He said. Yeah. Where did you find that
[1:17:03] out?
[1:17:06] I knew it a long time ago.
[1:17:09] And you know, I've been trying to do it
[1:17:12] as you know.
[1:17:16] He was he had he had a mindfulness a
[1:17:18] little mindfulness going there.
[1:17:21] When the Dalai Lama actually went to
[1:17:22] Monticello he and then afterwards to the
[1:17:25] Monti the Jefferson Memorial in DC, he's
[1:17:28] got all excited. He said, "I think I'm
[1:17:30] his reincarnation."
[1:17:32] Ooh.
[1:17:33] And the press went wild over that, you
[1:17:34] know. No, he did. He said that. I said,
[1:17:36] "What is this about? I'm reincarnated."
[1:17:37] I think I'm his reincarnation.
[1:17:39] Cuz he loves to tinker with things so
[1:17:41] all the weird inventions that Jefferson
[1:17:43] had in his house, and then seeing all
[1:17:45] the expressions of enlightenment and
[1:17:47] education that Jefferson writes in the
[1:17:48] memorial. He said, "I think I'm his
[1:17:50] incar I must be his reincarnation."
[1:17:53] Is it
[1:17:54] This has been great, you guys.
[1:17:57] Okay, what's the story?
[1:17:59] Is that the Are we
[1:18:01] I think we're ending.
[1:18:03] Oh, thank Thank you.
[1:18:05] Thank you.
[1:18:07] Good job.
[1:18:08] Thank you.
